Ego Board
When is the MMA train going to end??
I'm so sick of hearing from everyone on this boards about how they would just whip everyone's butt because they are in MMA. You guys act like this is something that hasn't been around for hundreds of years. Constantly there is nothing but fan-boys on here talking about how they would kick the crap out of every great martial artist that ever lived because they have a decent record. Where is the respect that was taught in your "disciplines"?? Whatever happened to respecting the cultivators of the arts that you practice?? This is what happens when you americanize anything. Egos explode all over the place. So go ahead and tell me about how you'd beat the crap out of me too, right? Because that's what martial arts are all about- beating everyone up that looks at you funny. Just ask yourself why you even bother studying something in complete hypocrisy.
Well I would caution you to not take the Internet as a basis for how the average MMAist acts or talks. For that matter don't take what people say on the Internet as representative for any group.
There is validity to what you are saying, unarmed competetions and combat has been around for hundreds of years. Unfortunately a lot of people have gotten away from it because it is too difficult or too harsh. The Americanization doesn't come with the ego, it comes with the short cut, drive thru, kid friendly, soccer mom catering, dojos out for profit.
What makes me laugh is the people spouting off what they think Martial Arts is about because of what they have essentially been indoctrinated into. Lessons which I believe certainly have some validity, and it makes sense (especially to parent's whose kids are students of an art) to preach about it only being for self defense, about honor, discipline, and respect. However this isn't really what Martial Arts was about, it is what has been included to make it easier to teach, and more parent friendly. The kind of discipline you see is simply trying to copy the discipline that you see in Asian Cultures, a lot of which is done at home, and all facets of life. As many arts are Asian, it is trying to recreate that culture here as part of it's exoticness.
However I would argue you see this kind of discipline in pretty much every single physical sport in which you have a mentor or coach. Discipline is required to push yourself period. Does that mean football is about Honor, Dignity, and Discipline as well? All programs try to instill that. Or are these principles a by product of the training? One could say football or basketball, or soccer is about honor, dignity, respect, and discipline as well. But no one ever does, they only seem to equate this to Martial Arts, as if Martial Arts has some patent on it.
There is purpose to these principles and it is just trying to help build good morals. Something parents should already be doing instead of expecting a Martial Arts instructor to do for them. But that is a whole other subject.
Anyone my point is that like anything else, people try to warp these things. "Well if you had discipline and respect, then you would never say someone is wrong!" Umm no, with all your discipline and respect, you are saying people are wrong. Everyone has an opinion and are entitled to it. Discipline and respect are about yourself and others, it doesn't mean to keep your mouth shut if you think someone or something is wrong, in fact quite the opposite.
The truth is the truth, and unforunately a TON of Martial Artist were brought up in arts, and styles that highly discouraged any kind of testing of their skill and technique. There was a point for this, a lot of it being that what they were taught wasn't effective, or that the teacher was incapable of understanding an art in it's combat range. Mostly because Martial Arts started to cater to kids and parents wanted to be assured that their kid wouldn't be a bully. They wanted to be all the positives that come with martial arts (or any athletic endevour) along with their kid being able to protect himself, they also wanted him to have discipline and values so as to not use his newly learned skills against other kids wrecklessly. Hence the discipline, respect, integrity mantras found in most Martial Arts. When teaching something that is meant to hurt people you had to put some disclaimer on it, something that didn't encourage people to use it wrongly. However that doesn't mean that there aren't bad apples in any bunch. Plenty of kids learned stuff and used it later, mostly because the only place they actually honored those principles was in the dojo. I've seen plenty of dojo bullies as well. That is just human nature, you can't make someone into something they don't want to be. Plenty of people have bad attitude despite being raised properly, and being in Martial Arts. There are just selfish @ssholish people out there period.
All Martial Arts were forged with effectiveness in mind, many styles were based from a person learning things that were more effective in fighting, and used it to create their own style. Look at your lineage, see where things really stem from.
Arts were forged and created in heated battles, often against rival schools to prove supremacy, as well as to prove effectiveness, and learn what works for them. Nobody is a great fighter without fighting.
Where I agree with the argument that the person who truly wins is the person who can walk away from the fight without ever having to engage in physical violence. Certainly everyone else would agree with that as well, including every MMAist out there. But in terms of simple effectiveness in a testing of skills area, those who come the closest to combat regularly, and engage in sparring and testing of their skills to develop timing, accuracy and effectiveness are certainly going to be better fighters than one who spends his time doing forms, and practicing on compliant partners.
It is the internet, and you are getting offended at people's make believe scenarios.In reality the likelihood of an adult male getting into a fight is about the same as getting bit by a shark, or hit by lightning. Like either scenario, you can definately do things to increase your odds, and to decrease them.
You can increase them by swimming in the ocean with chum and blood around you, or standing in the middle of an open field with a large metal rod during a thunderstorm, or going around looking for a fight. While your odds increase it still doesn't necessarily mean you will get bit by a shark, hit by lightning or find someone willing to fight, and in all cases there are consenquences. However every day living, the chance of having to deal with physical violence is slim, and even slimmer if you have a good head on your shoulders.
So reality is that what you study is for your own enjoyment alone.And that is truly what it should be measured against, the practioner's enjoyment and what they get from it.
Unfortunately too many people want shortcuts, they want to say that they can kick @ss, without having to actually go through the things that makes you be able to. That is the actual kicking of @ss, and getting your own @ss kicked on a regular basis.
Plain and simple if the average TMA practioner were to step into the average MMA gym, scratch that. If the average soccer mom, or person were to walk into a MMA Gym, they would leave horrified immediately. They would see people willingly hitting each other with a good deal of force, they would see people out front or out back throwing up from being worked so hard. They would see a lot of sweat, some blood, and a lot of pain. They would see joints being wrenched, stomachs getting pounded, and a whole lot more cardio then they would ever consider.The same as people would cringe when walking into a MMA gym no a days, people would cringe when seeing what Martial Arts do in foreign countries, especially in the early days of hard physical training, that was brutal.
In truth, that kind of thing isn't for everyone period. However that is what makes effective fighters. Cardio, conditioning, studying various ranges of combat, and sparring it hard and often against skilled opponents in each of those ranges.The truth is soccer moms will never buy into that, the average American will never buy into that. They would rather do something that was less strenuous, that they enjoy and that gives them self confidence, and there isn't a damn thing wrong with that. They just aren't as effective fighters as those that chose to go the route of hard work. They do it for the same reasons everyone else does. Not for ego, not for bragging rights. But because they enjoy it, they get fitness out of it, and they are more effective because of it. While fighting in the ring is great, it is ultimately just a way to test yourself. For every guy you see in a MMA ring, there are 10 guys back in the gym who train just as hard, but have no intention of stepping in the ring.
The more you bleed in training the less you bleed in battle.
I am sorry Beatchanter, but taking a 17 year old who has done some MMA and comparing him to someone who has practiced an art for a number of years and yes there will be some drop off. However test someone who has a few years into it, and it won't go quite the same.
Effectiveness comes with effective training period. No matter the art, or the style, if you train effectively then you will be more effective and that equates across the board. Obviously you have done your art for over a dozen or so years. Do you think you could handle a pro fighter who has been doing it for 6 years or so? Honestly? Probably not, they are going to be more athletic than you, and chances are they have way more conditioning and sparring partners at a much higher level then what you ever get to train with. Essentially they are professional fighters in the same way a professional football player is a Pro. There is no comparison with the layman, the high school star, it is just another level period.
Who is more disciplined? They guy who never speaks ill of anyone, always calls his seniors by their Japanese, Korean, or Chinese term of seniority. Who trains 2 times a week for an hour religiously?
Or the guy who wakes up, runs 3 miles, comes back and eats a regimented meal, goes to work, takes his lunch hour to go to they gym and work conditioning, spends 3 hours after work at the dojo, calls all his coaches "sir" or "Coach" or by their name, and spends about 20 to 30 hours a week training a Martial.
Perhaps they are both disciplined, and there is no measure to it both are willing to do things to better themselves and the world around them, both fight their own urges and strive for self betterment..
I find a lot of false generalizations in this question. Martial Arts are to each person what they make it period. They initial focus was combat yes. A punch is meant to hit someone, to hurt someone etc.With every single Martial Art, including MMA comes the self confidence and control that you don't need to prove yourself by beating everyone up.In fact you will find a whole lot less MMA fighters getting into fights outside the ring, then you will find people who have studied Martial Arts getting into a brawl.
All I ask is that you truly look with unprejudiced eyes, and see there are ego on both sides of the fence, and keep in mind that egos existed in every single culture period. That has nothing to do with America. I will gladly point to any founder of any Martial Art as being somewhat ego centric. After all, there are many Alpha type personalities in Martial Arts, furthermore to go far with them you have to be a competetive type of person period.
Look at the actual history of Martial Arts before you go around talking about the cultivators. Many of these cultivators fought to prove their own effectiveness, and the effectiveness of their style. Purely for ego, and pride in their style.I have never seen anyone on here say they would beat each other up, or anything of the sort. What you do see is "Random MMA guy vs. Random Martial Arts movie star, who wins?"
Egos abound on the internet period, and unfortunately some people hold beliefs as close as their hearts as religion about fighting and Martial Arts. The fact is they are both very ego centric things to begin with, especially with Males who still have a caveman instinct of fighting prowess determining social status. So for whatever reason, those instincts still exist, and people will ardently defend their ability to fight.
Sorry for my rant, but your question itself is an ego centric generalization filled with prejudice and unfounded theories.
You don't see MMA fan boys going at it with anyone who looks at them funny, nor do you see a professional fighter on the Internet telling everyone how he would beat so and so's @ss. (Unless it is a future opponent, or he is Tito Ortiz or Phil Baroni)
Most Martial Artist are respectful and down to earth. If you asked ten Martial Arts instructors if they could take a Fedor Emelienko, and they were honest 8 of them would say no way in hell. 2 of them would be deluded enough to think that they could. But I bet those 2 do very little if any sparring and have never been in any kind of competetion to test their skills and have a realistic idea of where their boundries are, or what they can or can't pull off in a real fight.
The truth is there is a huge following for the sport, much the same as people going around asking about Ninjas and secret Kung Fukilling methods represent exotic or traditional Martial Arts, the average poster represents MMA to the same extent. Meaning uninformed enthusiasts.
I hardly think anyone taking REAL MMA views it as a shortcut. Because it is far from it. However due to it's tough physical conditioning, and emphasis on alive training, sparring, fully resistant partners, you do progress ahead in terms of effectiveness faster than an art that doesn't spend as much time in those areas.
I can tell you with all honestly I never had to hurl from an Aikido class, a Jujitsu class, a Goju class, and may have come a little close during Kyokushin days. However I puked my guts out doing Judo and MMA. That is indicative of the level of workout I recieved and the intensity. Someone working harder, and more intense will have rapid gains over someone who is not period.
Well that is my little tidbit, hope it is insightful to at least one person.
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